From Authority to Facilitation: The New Role of Leaders with Joel Onyshuk

Carolyn: Hi, I’m Carolyn Swora, welcome to evolve a new era of leadership. My guest today is Joel Anishuk and several weeks ago, I had the pleasure of being on Joel’s podcast. It’s called the frontline leadership podcast. And we’re going to include that episode in the show notes, but we had such a great conversation.

I said, Joel, you have to come on my show. And so you’re going to hear us talk about. And yes, I know that’s a broad topic. Joel has been a leader himself. He has been on the front lines in a sales capacity, and then also has this podcast. He’s really, really motivated by. What makes leaders so great. not only does he have that experience as a leader, but he also has this insatiable curiosity about leaders.

And so I thought there’d be some great insights that we can learn from on our podcast here. I know this is going to be a great conversation with Joel.

 Welcome Evolve community. I’m really excited today to be having a second conversation with Joel Onyshuk. Welcome to the show, Joel.

Joel: Oh, thank you. Good to see you. And it’s such a delight to sit on this side of the microphone as it were and be a guest with you. It was a privilege and an honor to be on with you on my podcast recently. And this is going to be exciting. excited to talk through all the things that we didn’t talk about last 

Carolyn: I know. Well, for those of you who are not familiar with Joel’s work, that’s why we’re having him on the show. So you can hop over and see what he does. I had the privilege of being on his show after an introduction from another guest that I had. I thought it would be great, Joel, to have you on the show.

Andyou’ve had your own podcast fora long time now you get to interview a lot of leaders. You’re very interested in leadership to bring the best out in people, right? Like a real human centered leadership. And so, I wanted to tap into that vast amount of experience, what you’ve learned from all these discussions with leaders and also from your own perspective as a leader. Well, why don’t we start off with can you just provide a little bit of context for the listeners? why did you start doing your leadership podcast? What was your motivator behind that?

Why was this important for you?

Joel: So I spent over five years in manufacturing tech, had joined a fast growing company, about seven figures in revenue when I joined and they sold six years later for a billion dollars. And so it was a really enjoyable rocket ship to be on. But during that time, I was working a lot with midsize and large enterprise manufacturing organizations and sitting in the boardrooms of some of the most recognized companies.

Companies in the world digitally or in person and came to greatly respect the value of leaders at every level of every organization. Whether I’m sitting with a C suite in a boardroom or working with frontline leaders in manufacturing at that time, recognizing that, you know, the key to everything here is leaders.

If you’re going to be successful as an organization, that’s what it is. I think everyone probably recognizes that. But the purpose of the podcast became finding a way to connect the leaders in multiple industries across multiple disciplines in a centralized way where, you know, when’s the last time the former CEO of Yum Brands, Greg Creed, and the former CEO of Airmark UK, Andrew Main, and the former VP of customer experience at Orlando Health, Ken Kozelski, all these people could share Their challenges, which are remarkably the same because they’re all dealing with people and culture.

And that is ubiquitous, regardless of the kind of organization you have. We create a hub where all of them can hear from each other and share. And so that was originally the purpose. And I think Carolyn, the purpose has almost morphed a bit more in the last six months to become something even more special to me,

and that.

is again, behind, yeah, again, behind the scenes of these leaders lives and recognizing.

The humanization of these leaders is so critical. I know as a sales rep, I’m 19 years into a sales career when I was a sales rep working for directors and VPs of sales. I always felt like they were above me. They were more important than me. They were more intelligent than me.

And certainly many of them were at different times in different ways, but they weren’t better than me. They weren’t more valuable than me. They just had more experience in different ways than I did. They had different title than I had. and the responsibilities that came with that title. And I, think there’s been a value in diving into the podcast guests that I’ve had on the last six months, including yourself.

To hear their real stories and humanizing them and recognizing that, you know, the 14 year old janitor that I was is still the same guy who is the SVP of sales now, and that human story and all the pain and all the learnings and all the positives along the way, make up who I am andThere’s a value in sharing those stories and here in the hearts of leaders in ways that are transparent and vulnerable and authentic that maybe we don’t always get to hear when they’re leaning on their titles at work.

Carolyn: Yeah, well, I mean, Joel, I think it’s a really incredible realization that you had there to bring these stories. I’ll just give you an example. Music. I love music and I find that I have found new musicians or new bands after hearing their story and how the band got created versus relying on the media or what other people say.

And I find it just feel much more connected to their music and what they’re putting out. When I know that story, was there something that caused that shift for you? To realize like, I want to know more about their stories beyond what you said, like, I know that you wanted to get to the heart of that, but what was that shift?

And why now? Like, why do you think that became more important now?

Joel: think because I, at the time that I was reporting to those sorts of people and director and VP roles, I didn’t even think remotely about their humanity outside of their job description.

Carolyn: Why not?

Joel: Because I felt like I was so disconnected from who they were that I felt like, again, back to the, they’re smarter than me, more distinguished or capable than I am, or whatever.

I felt we were living in different worlds that I wasn’t on the same plane or wavelength as they were. And I look back and think, man, But that change was, it was maybe a series of moments. It was back to the manufacturing tech company I was at.

And it was working with the CEOs and C suite of those organizations and, you know, whether they’re 40 million or 40 billion companies get to sit at dinner with these folks and then see the rawness of their humanity and hear their stories, hear about their divorces, hear about their struggles with their kids, hear about the ups and downs of their careers.

 I think that there’s an image that maybe I’ve shared elsewhere on my podcast, but I’ll say it here. It’s so silly, Carolyn, but the image I had, which was so vibrant at that time you know, a decade ago, was coming home on weekends and grilling in my backyard. At the time, my youngest was a year old or so.

And that these men and women in these C suite positions were coming home to their families as well and grilling in their backyards. And when, you know, when you grill a hot dog and it falls between the cracks and then you ruin it and it’s laying in the coals and how frustrating that is. That image was stuck in my head of that.

This CEO of this fortune 500 company or whatever, goes home and grills hot dogs with his family. And that hot dog falls through the slats too. And all the frustrations, all the norms of life are just as real for him or her. As they are for me. And so can we stop elevating or not elevating people based on their titles and just seeing them as they really are and connecting with them in that way.

And that, that to me was kind of a pivotal moment for me a decade ago.

 What do you think contributed to that? Aha. What do you think?

Carolyn: What led to that? I’ll have for And how do we get more people to find that? 

Joel: Yeah, I think what drove that aha was meeting great leaders who were willing to put aside their title and put aside their elevation based on their role in our company and connect as humans to me. And be willing to share their story. And again, that’s the podcast purpose is to be willing to share that story beyond the

Carolyn: Right, right. So. You were interviewing them and then when some of them started to open up a bit more, they’re like, Oh, that kind of led to the hot dog image. And then it really sunk in like, Whoa, these stories really helped me realize I’m just like them.

Joel: Yeah. And you know, there was an element too, of when we connected in that informal way, apart from work, apart from job description, and we started connecting as humans, man to man, man to woman, whatever it may be at the time, there was this humanity that was really beautiful of like, Oh, they actually respect my opinion on things outside of work as well, you know, sharing my story as a father, sharing my story, my career, sharing my story, and with whatever we were talking about and recognizing that I actually had intrinsic value in their eyes in a way that was equal, not subordinate.

And that, could we do that all the time? Could we stop leaving that for after hours, happy hours, and can we begin to do that at work as well? And I think that to me was a powerful realization that if it is possible, and I believe it is, and it has been done. And I try to do that with my own team. And with my boss as well, there’s a profound impact that we can have in our workplaces and our communities when we can start connecting in that way instead.

Carolyn: So let’s shift to your experience as a leader then, and bringing that to the teams that you work with, that realness, that authenticity, that vulnerability. What advice do you have for the listeners who are on a similar journey to yours to lean into that? Cause that’s, a hard thing to do is to lean into vulnerability. 

Joel: Yeah. I think that there’s a risk there. Two years ago or so I spoke at my alma mater about the concept of vulnerability and my title my speech was a risk worth taking. And it is a risk, but it is worth taking it. And for those listening who are of the belief that it is important to truly connect, be authentic, be vulnerable, be transparent and invite people in, in a personal way beyond the title. I think the lesson to learn is first and foremost, like you need to know yourself and then be willing to share your own story in that regard. we feel the pressure and I think unintentionally based on how we’ve been conditioned, we feel the pressure to seem important in front of our subordinates, you know, in front of our team to, seem like we have it all together.

And that they can rely on us to have the answers. And although to a certain extent, they should rely on us to have some answers and to provide them direction. It doesn’t mean that we need falsely promote ourselves as of having every answer or that we have a special. Ability that they don’t to come up with the answer.

And I wrote a blog recently I’ll just mention it here. I think it addresses some of thisbut I wrote for the company I work for Atana and it was during mental health awareness month in May on May 10th. and it was four steps to address mental health 

Carolyn: Okay. 

Joel: and it’s a bit of a weird way to answer your question, but when it comes to the criticality of mental health, for example, and I write my blog about, you know, my own challenges of.

of anxiety and depression and things like that. And that’s also others in my family who face those things. I say a few things. I say you’re, you’ve got folks in your team who are losing parents right now to deadly illnesses. You’ve got them going through divorces or having children turn their backs on them.

You’ve got many who are addicts and don’t even know they’re addicts. You’ve got many who are going through financial difficulty and the list goes on. And so to your question about like, how do we promote that within our teams, as far as vulnerability with them, I think similar to that question that you’re asking regarding back to the question of mental health and talking about in the workplace, what do we do is step one is we talk about it and lead with our own stories when it comes to mental health of a woundedness, but in answer to your question, we lead with our own stories and humanize ourselves in front of them.

we talk about the very things that they’re probably feeling hesitant to discuss themselves. We open up potentially taboo topics that let them breathe and say, Oh my goodness. Finally, someone is talking about this thing that I already think about all the time, but now that you’re talking about it, it gives me permission to talk about it openly.

Secondly, after we talk about it and we normalize. The things we think about and things our team thinks about and make them feel comfortable to discuss things openly, then we proactively come towards them and offer our support.

And then we promote a one team mentality that you’re not alone here at work that just like me, there are others just like you around you. Foster that sense of community and belonging through team activities. And then we invest deeper in, our own leadership development as well. So I think there’s some things that we can do.

Ourselves as leaders, if we want vulnerability and transparency and things in the workplace, we need to lead with it, show it and encourage others to follow. we can’t expect everyone else to do it unless we set the pace and show them what it looks like first.

Carolyn: It’s just, there’s so much humanness in that. Right. And I think what 2020 did, it was a real light switch to elevating our humanity above other things. What did you have to say to yourself or maybe what would you say to others who. are really hesitant to share any piece of themselves because they think it means telling their entire life story and crying and getting really emotional, That can be sort of a myth that people have about vulnerability. How did you overcome that?

Joel: I think it comes down to wisdom and it comes down to sharing. The purpose or the point of the story without necessarily going into all the gruesome details. I think there’s an element of wisdom and it comes down to maybe opening up and sharing too much is inappropriate or make someone feel uncomfortable, but can you get across the point of what you’re saying by humanizing yourself and letting them in a little bit?

For example. know, if you’re going through a brutal divorce or something like that, and, you know, employee just let you know that they’re separated from their spouse or whatever, you don’t need to go through every gory detail of your own story to humanize yourself. You can say, you know what, take whatever time you need.

This is going to be the most stressful thing you’re going to go through possibly ever. And I just want to let you know, I’ve gone through it myself and want to provide you the flexibility and support that I had when I went through mine. So please let me know what you need. I think that’s a humanizing way of connecting without having to spill the beans and be inappropriate.

Carolyn: Yeah, I’d agree. And also, we don’t need to cry either, right? We don’t need to dig all into the emotion. it’s really about cognitive empathy, right? Like connecting orthe difference between cognitive empathy and affective empathy, We didn’t need to crawl into the emotion with them, but we can acknowledge that emotion and let them know that we see them and connect with them on that level.

It’s powerful as you’re learning and I’m sure what your other podcast guests have shared.

Joel: Yeah. And you know, but I think that effective empathy is also not necessarily always bad either.

I remember I was letting go of an employee one time and it wasn’t because of performance, it wasn’t because of anything they did. It was just because of that was the state of the company at that point. And I watched this employee of mine sob in front of me. And I cried as well, because I felt so deeply wounded on this person’s behalf and recognized all the things that were going through their mind and all the repercussions of this decision and things they couldn’t control their family, their career, their home, their debts, or whatever may be going on.

And I felt that I think there was an element of value in showing that as well. Not being that stoic, like here’s what’s happening. And let me know if you have any questions. And then you move on. It’s like, no I’m happy to enter into this with you as well.

Carolyn: Yeah. You know, that’s a great, point. Because I don’t disagree with you at all. I mean, I had the unfortunate responsibility to do that several times, and I don’t think there was a single time that I did it. Maybe the first time, because I was trying to make sure I did it the right way.

I kind of got out of my heart and into my head. It is, it was really hard. In fact, the last time I had to do it, like, I was really emotional. I think there are situations that being one where being in it with them can be helpful. And also it’s tricky because we don’t want to overshadow the experience either.

And that’s sort of what pulled me back together was like, well, this isn’t about me. It’s about them. Like get it together, Carolyn. I think that like, what might be another example of that. I think that’s such a, an interesting thing to think about. ’cause we don’t wanna turn our hearts off.

Joel: I’ll go on the record and say, I will probably be the person who is more likely to struggle with the effective empathy than others, perhaps. Like I, I do wear my emotions on my sleeve at times.

And I’ve, I’ve of course worked at being a professional and all those things, you must be as a leader, 

You know, I’m someone who does maybe get into the weeds of life, maybe deeper than some other leaders would, but in an authentic and I think appropriate way, I think of another employee of mine that I had, who was struggling to ask the hard questions this is maybe way beyond what anyone listening would ever do, but I’ll share it anyway.

We’re struggling to ask hard questions of their customers, right? And as a sales rep, a good sales rep, you need to ask hard questions and challenge the customer and get them to think about life differently. I’ll call this person Brenda. I want to schedule an hour or more with you one on one to go through an exercise where you are forced to be uncomfortable and ask me extremely uncomfortable questions that you would never think to ask your boss.

Things, questions that you would never think is appropriate, even in that relationship. It could be about my family. It could be about my past. It could be whatever you want to find out, but you have full permission from me to ask me whatever you want to know, and I will answer you. And so I gave Brenda the permission to do this and I said if you give me your permission, I’m going to do the same thing to you to show you what it looks like to really ask questions that are hard, but also questions that are meant to give life and give a desired outcome.

Right. And so I say all that to set up the outcome for us was tears. That in a positive way, we made it such a meaningful connection because she felt, and I felt like I truly knew a part of her that she never felt comfortable sharing at work, but it was actually something that. Informed the way I led her as an employee, because now I understood this history that she had, and I was able to incorporate that knowledge into the way I saw her live her life at work, into the way she made decisions, into the way she thought about problems, and it informed why she actually, I think, at times, struggled to ask the hard questions.

And so, I don’t know the last time someone listening in this podcast, you know, cried with their employee talking about hard life things from decades ago. But back to the concept of holistic people, like we bring out all the work and it may be possible at times that knowing that about your team is advantageous.

But again, I didn’t ask her to do that until I was willing to open up first and let her experience that for me.

Carolyn: which is the leaders go first type mentality there. Here’s what I heard in that. Thank you for sharing that you wear your heart on your sleeve. I’m similar to that too. There have been several tears shed with people that I work with. And what I want to emphasize with listeners is if you are not somebody that tears come easily to, or that you don’t lead with your heart first, that’s okay.

I think there is a lot of merit in what you shared. What I heard you do with Brenda is you gave her a safe place or a safe enough place to practice feeling the discomfort. And I think that is such a brilliant offering to the people that we work with, because what is really leadership all about? Forget the titles, right?

We’re all leaders in our organizations and every day there is some sort of unexpected thing that shows up. There’s some element of pressure or stress that might feel a little bit beyond our capacity. So learning to live with discomfort is a really critical skill. And that’s the takeaway I hear with Brenda is let’s practice being uncomfortable.

And. What happened to Brenda after? Cause my guess is she learned, like, it’s kind of like building that muscle. Like, Oh, okay. I can do this. What’s on the other side of this.

Joel: Yeah, there was certainly a new life that came out of that conversation for her. And I think that it was cool to watch the growth following that. I mean, she wasn’t a, 20 year old employee. This is a seasoned salesperson. And even to know that this is, decades into this person’s career, they’d never had that moment of being able to let their guard down and get comfortable being uncomfortable.

that was a life to be moment, I think for her. And I think she benefited a lot from that.

Carolyn: what do you think of what I just shared about giving the space to practice discomfort? Did you see it in that way?

Joel: for sure I saw it as a twist on a sales role play conversation, again, you know, we can sit there and go, you know, ask me as a customer, a hard question and it’s like, okay, but that’s not really that uncomfortable in the scheme of things because there’s no risk here.

There’s actually is risk in asking your boss a deep question about their past that you genuinely want to know the answer to that you might go, Oh, I’m not sure if I can actually do that. Cause again, you get this feeling that, Oh, they’re my superior, they’re my boss, and is this even appropriate? And again, I want to say to anyone listening, it might not be appropriate to do that in your workplace.

I don’t want to make this the norm, but I saw as again, a risk worth taking in my sphere of influence at that time with my team, with this person. To do that. And I think that vulnerability, that risk was worth taking and that space was worth creating for sure.

Carolyn: Right. And I think it can lead to learning how to tolerate this discomfort. I think one of the major leadership opportunities that people have is stepping into the uncertainty and being able to navigate and lead through it. But I’m curious what. If any discussions have evolved on your podcast around uncertainty and ambiguity and sort of leading through that.

Joel: I think there’s been some podcast portions across several episodes. One of them being Martha Bird anthropologist I had on recently around the concept of. Challenging preconceptions and challenging your assumptions. And that is something that is uncomfortable at times. We have preconceived notions of how things are that if we step down into the ranks of our teams and actually see a daily level, we may go, Ooh, that may not be actually true.

And yet it’s hard to admit that. And it’s hard to address that at times. So there’s certainly conversations about it, but actually that’s interesting thing to explore more and more directly with the guests on my podcast. I think that’s a good

Carolyn: Yeah. I think there’s a very strong connection with stepping into that authenticity and that vulnerability. I don’t think you can lead through uncertainty if you’re not willing to be more vulnerable. And the vulnerability might not mean asking questions about your story, which I think does help, but it could be about asking questions about the business or about planning assumptions or like these sort of more head type analytical things.

Joel: Yeah. I, and so now you’re sparking that for me. I can’t remember if I talked about this. So the podcast began after, but not so removed that it was irrelevant. The COVID crisis.

Carolyn: Yep.

Joel: And I think the COVID 19 crisis for us, for, I think most professionals put into stark contrast, the organizations where that sort of, Comfortable being uncomfortable was a real thing and it was healthy. And the organizations where that wasn’t a reality. And I think the healthy organizations were willing to say at the top, the CEO level was, we don’t have all the answers. We don’t know when we’re going to come back to work. We don’t know how long we’re going to be furloughed.

We don’t know all these things, but you know what? We care about you deeply. And it is insofar as it’s possible for us, we We’re to come toward you and provide you these benefits or keep on paying you for as long as we can, or whatever it may be. It was the organizations that didn’t do that and acted like it’s no big deal.

We have it all together. We know what the answer is. Just trust us. I think lost the most trust because everyone’s looking around going like you actually know what you’re doing right now, because it’s pretty hard to believe. And I think that is a good point, Carolyn, that, I do this for my own team as well.

I invite them into the things, the problems I’m trying to solve all the time. Q4, 2023, I was really struggling. I had taken over the sales team about six months at that point. And we had to really overhaul our sales process. There were a lot of things that I’m like, I could work on all of these things on my own, but I’m not entirely sure I can do that.

Especially at the speed I need to. And so I said, listen, I don’t know the right questions to ask in discovery necessarily. I don’t know all these different things. So for three days, I invite them down to Florida and . We set up shop in this building next to the community pool and worked for three days straight on all the things that I didn’t know what to do to address.

And I think there’s a health there where there’s that welcome feedback at your team level of going. I don’t have all the answers, but I think that collectively we all probably do. And I trust you with that. And I believe that you can provide that value. And I’m just here to facilitate that outcome.

That’s a powerful thing. I think for a lot of people.

Carolyn: The art of facilitating is different than the art of leading or the art of managing. And I had just very rarely heard people describe good leaders as ones who can facilitate an experience. Like you just said, like you just said, I just facilitate, I was there to facilitate. And so. Where does facilitation as a skill set sit for the success of leaders in the future.

Joel: Yeah. I think we’re reaching a really interesting place in human history where it’s truly a reality that many people on our teams really do know so much more than we do. With the prolific nature of the internet and then with, of course, the burgeoning capabilities of AI. Leaders or, or managers owning a topic and knowing just more than everyone else is really probably going to go away forever because can’t possibly keep up and no more than everyone else.

And nor do I believe they’re supposed to. I think a leader needs to have wisdom. A leader needs to have perspective and a leader needs to be able to move people from one existing place to a new reality over time empower them and encourage them and show them how to get there. But that is in some way facilitation in see it as a critical skillset because the role is less, you’re not doing the job, right?

Let me show you how to do it, which I think is not really great leadership anyway. Even though it’s an important part of maybe managing or training. But it’s going to be much more about identifying and coordinating all the pieces within your organization to come together, to solve the problem.

And it’s going, this team that we’ve assembled is now the team to solve this problem.

And I’m going to step back and say, here’s what we’re trying to get to. I may have, like I did in Florida, an agenda because it’s my job is to at least think ahead and not be in the weeds and forecast where we need to go. And at least directionally how to get there. But I’m going to invite you into it and say, okay, here’s my best thought, my first draft, essentially of how we need to go.

What am I missing? How do we address this and approach this and using that mind share and that experience in the room, get to an outcome that perhaps I didn’t even visualize as possible, but was a better version of what we needed to do. So I think facilitation is certainly. A key component of, leadership now, but we’ll definitely be more powerful in the future as we democratize knowledge at a very high level.

Carolyn: Yeah, I’m just loving this conversation with you, Joel. I feel like we should have like a quarterly sort of check in with each other as we learned these new things with leaders I was going to bring up the role of AI and if that has been something that has shown up in your podcast guests and how leaders are navigating this reality and it sort of naturally came up how is AI coming up in your conversations with leaders or is it yet?

Joel: So, I’m happy to share a few things, but this is a topic that I admit I have not spent a ton of time thinking about.

And it’s probably predominantly because I think that leadership is one of those things that AI can never really help in the sense of at the core of who we are, we want to connect human to human with someone else.

We don’t want to outsource leadership to an AI robot of some kind and lead people that way. People don’t want to be led that way. They want to be led with true human connection. However, there’s a few things that have stood out. One has been. Just as leaders in general, how can we visualize the future of work and the future of employees amongst the changes of AI and its impact at work.

And with that recognition, the AI will. Change jobs, affect jobs. How do we continue to lead through that and not have people feel discouraged on our team, fearful on our teams? I think the change of jobs and how, You know, I think about the frontline, my podcast is called the frontline industry podcast, and so we talk about the frontline worker a lot.

And how the frontline role will change potentially over time as AI gets more strong. And so maybe we re imagine the role, for example, of the barista. Can we get a robot to do all the work of making a coffee just as well as a person? Probably. It doesn’t feel like a stretch to think that’s likely a thing.

And so if we have less people doing that, can we look at the role of barista as something else, as a host for that location of creating an experience for the, guest in a more hotel front, desk manager kind of way, or concierge kind of way. That’s come up a few times. And then I think the last one has been at least I’ve been thinking about this less on the podcast probably, but how can I leverage AI to problem solve issues in a trial and error situation without having to go to the employee and trial and error with the employee too.

So for example, if I have a an employee who’s underperforming. And can input all the data into, I like to use clod. ai more than chat GPT. more human in the way it responds, but I input, you know, into Claude, you are this employee with these challenges and here’s the track record.

And here’s the things I need you to be able to be comfortable doing eventually in this near term, by this date. Here’s who I am, SVP of sales doing this thing. What are 10 ways I can encourage this employee to be more effective or whatever it may be. And now walk me through as if you were that employee, me telling you this sort of thing and see how this fake employee now responds to me in this AI environment and go, Ooh, I don’t like the way that came out.

Let me try that again. And just, I think that practice, especially for a new leader. And I don’t feel like I need that very often. I feel like I’ve seen enough stuff now where I don’t really need that. And I can kind of fly by the seat of my pants in a more natural way in addressing issues, but for that new frontline leader, you know, manager at a restaurant who’s now managing 16 employees for the first time has been elevated from bartender to manager or whatever it may be. And unfortunately in those industries, there’s almost no leadership training. 

Carolyn: right. 

Joel: here’s how to open and close the restaurant and the way you go. And so can we leverage AI to provide training and role play that training as a leader to at least effectively give them some sort of guidance?

I think we can have a conversation as well.

Carolyn: Yeah. when you gave the example of the barista and how that role could shift into creating a stronger experience without doing the transaction of making the beverage, that was a real Transactional leadership or transactional tasks. there could be a place for that.

I’m not, I don’t want to make a blanket statement. there’s a role for AI in all of that. As humans, we are always going to be the driver. And I do feel a little bit stronger in saying always, but I know that’s a pretty binary way of saying it, but to create a transformational experience. And that’s what I’m really taking from that last piece that you’ve shared is how can we create those transformational experiences and allow AI to help us with the transactional?

I mean, even when you’re talking about practicing scenarios, that’s transactional and then to take that into real life. So I can create more of a transformational experience with real people.

Joel: Yeah. I think, and I’m thinking about this in real time right now, and I haven’t thought about this before, but you know, I think this comes into an identity. conversation in my belief system as a Christian of like where our identity comes from 

Carolyn: Mmm. 

Joel: because of the divine, it’s made in the image of God.

And are there things that are transactional that AI can take away from us that are easy to provide AI an opportunity to execute. For example, making the coffee. While refocusing humans on human connection that elevates all of us. That personhood that elevates that transformation, that elevates the divine.

If you will, there’s nothing divine about the maybe for some coffee lovers there are there, but there’s only divine about receiving a latte from barista, you don’t know over the counter and then walking away, but there could be a divine moment, an experiential transformational moment in an experience economy, in an experiential situation with a.

Focused new world barista, if you will where they’re able to connect with you in a way that is life giving and creates an experience that you will never forget. I think that is a sort of thing that we’re never going to be able to get away from as important, and we cannot outsource to AI while there are many things that are transactional that we can.

Carolyn: Yeah. we’re back to connection, right? Which, what vulnerability opens the door for that connection? Well, we didn’t even plan that whole sort of circular, how it all kind of came back to that. But now I’m thinking I am going to be thinking about this all night now, Joel, who knows what my dreams will lead to transformational something.

Joel: Yeah. No, I think we have a responsibility as humans insofar as we’re able to positively transform the communities around us.

And if done properly in the conversation we’re having now, AI can remove the barriers of the menial tasks that we don’t want to do and provide us the freedom to make those sort of connections.

Carolyn: Yeah, I want to come back to one last thing before we close out. You said earlier the impact of self awareness and being aware of ourself. Where do you see that going? You know, self awareness has been touted for several years now. There’s lots of evidence that demonstrates leaders with higher levels of self awareness will do better leading.

We know through vertical development programs that This search for meaning within ourselves and our own sort of connection with our purpose will lead us into better leadership spaces. What advice or what do you see happening in the future looking forward? That’s going to help more leaders deepen their self awareness or have a stronger commitment to themselves and their purpose.

Joel: You know, I think one of the positives that we’ve seen and it was before COVID, but certainly after COVID has been the change of focus around wellness. At work, and it certainly has to do with our demographic of employees as well. Where I think the generational differences between, you know, my parents generation, for example, and then myself as an older millennial.

And of course, Gen Zs as well, you get, as you go down the ladder of generations and you get toward the Gen Z end, you get more and more people who are prioritizing wellness, mental wellness, physical wellness, personal wellness, and all forms. Whereas perhaps previous generations kind of downplayed that a bit and didn’t prioritize that as much as they should have, quite honestly.

With that change, I think comes a healthy refocus on recognizing that self awareness is critical because we can’t help others until we help ourselves, that we can’t be aware of the needs of others until we’ve gone through that for ourself as well. And so what’s the future? I don’t know. But I think it is more significant than it even is now, as far as in order to survive and succeed as a leader, self awareness allows you to be empathetic with others because you recognize similar needs in them, or that the needs that you have may look different than others, but come from the same place of insecurity or fear or whatever it may be.

And I think people are desperate. To have someone understand them.

And I think that comes from a lot of places and I think we see that lived out on social media of, you know, people desperate to get their likes and their shares and their, whatever it may be. They’re desperate for attention. Not because they necessarily need it.

Physically, but mentally they feel like they haven’t been told that they’re okay, that you are loved and that you are accepted as you are. And so looking from everyone else to fulfill that need, if we can fulfill that need at work

a Manager to an employee, a leader to an employee, and we can heal wounds that people are carrying into work every day with them, that they don’t even realize they’re carrying.

Cause I think a lot of people wouldn’t even recognize that they’re needy in that way and are looking for affirmation. I think if we can heal people that way, We have a powerful opportunity to transform community. And that changes the way they work at home, live at home and their churches and their neighborhoods and all sorts of things.

So I think there’s a big opportunity in the future there.

Carolyn: Well, that seems like, an ideal spot to wrap up our conversation. But I just want to thank you, Joel, not only for this conversation, but for the conversation that we had on your podcast as well.

I really appreciate your time. are there any last things that you want to share with the audience before we head into the evolve questions?

Joel: One of the somewhat recurring themes on my podcast has been the criticality of mentorship. I think there are a lot of leaders, aspiring leaders or current leaders who are truly trying to do it on their own. And are struggling as a result, because we’re not really meant to go through this life alone. and this is a bit of a soapbox, but in a epidemic of, single parents you know, and, and scenarios where kids grown up to be Gen Z’s so forth, haven’t had both parents in the home who haven’t had as muchOne on one mentorship in that regard, especially now there’s a desperate need and desire for that sort of connection for someone who’s gone ahead of them at least a couple steps to give them wisdom and perspective and advice. they don’t have it and so they’re left floundering. And I just want to encourage everyone here listening to identify a handful of people in your life who are living the life that you want to have as a leader as an individual and seek them out and ask, Hey, I’d love to set up an opportunity to just consistently bi monthly, monthly, quarterly, monthly.

Talk to you 

Carolyn: Hmm. 

Joel: what I’m trying to accomplish and where I’m at and get your feedback and advice. I think if approached well, a lot of healthy, solid leaders, who, of course, the people that you’re identifying in that process will come back to you and say, I’m happy to, and they they don’t get asked.

And so take that opportunity because by taking that opportunity, you will give yourself a step ahead of everyone else who’s not.

Carolyn: And by doing that, you’re practicing vulnerability because you’re asking for connection. You’re asking for help. Oh, beautiful. Joel, where could our audiences find you and your podcast?

Joel: Yeah, absolutely. So I am pretty active on LinkedIn. Joel Uch is J-O-E-L-O-N-Y-S hk,so LinkedIn slash in.com/in/joel Uck. You can find the Frontline Industry podcast@frontlineindustrypodcast.com. Also on LinkedIn as well, and the website. and wherever podcasts are found, like Apple Spotify and stuff.

So I hope that in some way those listening can find me there and we can stay connected. Cause I’d love to get to know some folks.

Carolyn: Yeah, we’ll cross promote. In fact, my son right now is working on clips from the podcast that you and I did. it was a really great one for me. I found that your synthesis and your curiosity about the content of our discussion was at a really high level.

exceptional level. So, so yeah now, Joel, before we close off I ask all of our guests the three evolve questions. Are you all set?

Joel: I’m all set. Let’s do it.

Carolyn: All right. So these three questions are based around three elements of my evolved leadership model. And the first one, I know we’ve talked about self awareness already, but curious if there is a story or short anecdote that you would like to share with the listeners that took your level of self awareness from here to here, 

Joel: You know, I, it was funny as I shared it earlier and that

was the, That was the hot dog story. that awareness that we’re all the same in really critical ways and really important ways. And that recognition and then embracing that reality has been huge for me. So that self awareness of I have worth and where does it come from?

And also that others bring value that, if I dig below the surface, I think I can really harness and get to know, and that’s been enjoying the podcast. It’s been a joy with you, Carolyn, as well. I think that self awareness is coming out of those things a bit.

Carolyn: Yeah. And I love it in this like random moment of a hot dog on a barbecue that all sort of clicked for you. So that’s a powerful piece of that story too. So my second question has to do with self regulation, sort of like how do we manage ourselves to get ourselves through the day?

And so are there any routines or things that you do that help you find calm that help you stay regulated that help you process life?

Joel: usually people don’t see this in me, but I can assure everyone listening that I’m actually without regulation, an anxious and angry person.

And I have learned the hard way, but now the easier way as time goes on to regulate myself by two things, one. When I’m teetering on the edge of anxiety or anger or frustration, taking a walk in my neighborhood has been big.

To walk away from the desk and essentially walk away from the problem, if you will, and just think and reflect and be calm and pause and let my heart rate settle and my kind of calm down and then maybe one step further, you know, sleeping on a situation as well. we make a lot of dumb choices at 1130 PM when we’re arguing with someone and the things that we say and the way we say it and approaching a problem with fresh eyes, well rested and in a well regulated emotional state, I think has been.

Something I’ve really focused on in recent history as well.

Carolyn: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. unless you’d said that I wouldn’t have realized your conscious intentional effort, right? It’s really easy to just presume like, Oh, everybody’s always laid back or cool and calm, so I just, I really appreciate how you shared that.

Last question. Notably, one of my favorites cause I love music so much. is there a song, a genre of music that really helps you feel connected to something bigger than yourself?

Joel: So I have a whole album on my Spotify account that, is called. Epic emotion inducing songs.

Carolyn: No way. , is it a public list? Can I join?

Joel: I don’t know if it is. I can look and tweak it and to

There you go.You’ll get to know a lot about me by seeing what’s on there. But one of the things on there is, is really not one I think that people would normally think of, and maybe most people don’t even know. But there’s a piano suite.

18. I grew up classically trained from five years old to 18. In my first year of college, I was a piano performance major. And, pictures at an Exhibition is a piano suite in ten movements by Madis Mazorski and the promenade is the kind of recurring theme that you’ll hear over and over again and it grows over time and it crescendos in the last movement.

And I don’t know why, but ever since I heard that as maybe a junior in high school and started playing through that suite of movements by Modest Mazurekski, it’s a hard name to say out loud. That has captured my emotion in some ways that few other classical pieces have, even though I’ve played a ton of them.

And if I want to feel like crying. as someone who struggles to sometimes get emotions out in productive ways I’ll throw that on and let the tears go that has been a really fun one to listen to and pull out the archives on occasion. 

Carolyn: And what’s it called? 

Joel: Pictures and exhibition.

Carolyn: All right. . I know what I’m putting on my playlist as soon as we finish this. Joel, thank you again so much for coming on the show. it’s really a delight. Shout out to Susan Winchester for connecting us. It’s been a real pleasure to be connected with you and to support your work and to hear your story.

So thank you.

Joel: Thank you. It’s been a pleasure to have you on my podcast and a real pleasure to be on yours and thanks for the invite Like you say, maybe we should just do this quarterly and catch up and stay connected because what a wonderful healing conversation for me and hopefully for everyone listening has been powerful as well.

Carolyn: Thanks everyone for tuning in. We’ll see you next time.

Ooh, that was such a great conversation with Joel. You know, getting comfortable with being uncomfortable is not a natural place for us as humans to be. Our brains like certainty, they like repetition and they like to make meaning out of things. And so I encourage you as a leader, as a human in a very fast paced world, to Get curious about how you can find a little bit more comfort in the discomfort of each day.

And that’s going to look different for each of us. In my conversation with Joel, I referenced something called vertical development and in essence, vertical development will allow us to embrace this uncertainty, at least part of that concept. I’m going to include in the show notes, a link to a blog article that I wrote about vertical development, because as a leader, this is going to be a really important part of your own growth strategy as we head into.

This new era of leadership. Thank you again for tuning in. If you want to reach out and connect with me, you can find me at Carolyn Suara. com and please rate and review the podcast and feel free to share it with a friend or business associate. Thanks again for tuning in. We’ll see you soon.